After posting this article,
my intention was to ignore Mr. Soliman’s any future post because it’s not worth
my attention [having no Sound Argument]; but one FB friend send a message and
asking me to refute Mr. Soliman's Oct.10 post. (I explained to him my cause of no reply, then he agreed
to me). Today, to my surprise, when I open my FB account I receive five messages
from different friends asking me to respond. So, I will grant their request for
now. [Hello Sir Mar, sorry for cutting our conversation this morning because of
weak signalJ]
[Mr. Soliman’s words are in RED...
as usual]
… he is trying to regain his integrity and his FOCUS as
usual;
… he tried to maneuver as usual;
… his best allies – the FALLACIES as usual.
Do you see an answer in C. Pio's post?
They do. A
comment coming from FB friend: Frankly, C.Pio
spanked Gerry’s joke like a silly child.
I don't see any competent response
whatsoever. Thirty percent of his post is just highlighting that I made a
mistake in the post that I should respond to
Any
Mathematical formula on how he came up with thirty
percent?
and allegations
of not responding to his counterargument of Kecharitomene.
As usual… Mr.
Soliman loss his focus again. I’m not accusing him of not responding to my counterargument of kecharitomene;
here’s what Mr. Soliman missed: he
quickly moves on to the other claim (without
giving an outright answer raised by his opponent). Responding and outright answer are two different
meaning [an outright answer is a response but not all response is an outright answer].
That is
intentionally done by him so that you wouldn't notice how he barely responded
to my argument against his belief that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.
Petitio Principii? Begging the question Fallacy in
which his proposition relies on an implicit premise within itself to
establish the truth of that same proposition. In other words, it is a statement
that refers to its own assertion to prove the assertion.[1] (LOL).
x = He barely responded to my argument
"x is true because x is true" the premise 'x' is
only one of many premises that go into proving that 'x' is true as a
conclusion.
He first takes
Athanasius "hostage":
Taking St. Athanasius hostage? What a preconceived idea is
this? Let me remind him of what he says and I quote: Basically,
C. Pio (and other Roman Catholic
apologists like him) draws a parallel between the events that had happened
to the Ark of the Covenant in 2nd Samuel 6:2 to 14 and the events that had
happened to Mary during Christ's conception in Luke 1:39-45, 56. Their
conclusion therefore, having what is seemingly similar between the two, is that
Mary is the Ark
of the New Covenant.
So my response to his statement (- statement not ARGUMENT)
is this:
Who’s
who in other Roman Catholic Apologist who typifies Mary as a New Ark of the
Covenant? One famous Roman Catholic Apologist who draws parallel between Mary
and the Ark of the Covenant is no other that Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373). He is
considered to be a renowned Christian theologian, a Church Father, the chief
defender of Trinitarianism against Arianism in the First Council of Nicaea.
There you go; I introduced Athanasius a Roman Catholic
Apologist who sees Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant.
C. Pio's "hostage" taking is
simply this: If Athanasius is wrong about Mary being the Ark of the New
Covenant then we are going against the man whom we share other beliefs with
such as the 27 New Testament books and the deity of Christ. Is that how it
works?
Obviously, Not. Mr. Soliman is performing a fallacy of presumption once again, he is
Poisoning the well. I’m not saying
that once you see Athanasius is wrong in some point, you were considered
yourself already AGAINST HIM; that you will find yourself against with other
beliefs such as the belief in 27 New Testament books and the deity of Christ. Non Sequitur! Let me re-post here what
was my response:
If
I am wrong and Mr. Soliman is right in accusing me of being subjective
misapplications in showing Mary parallel with the Ark of the Covenant, so MUST
with Athananius, the great first defender of Christ’s divinity against the
second-century heretics, the "Father of The Canon" for being the
first person to identify the same 27 books of the New Testament that are in use
today against all Gnostic Gospel (eg. Gospel of Judas etc) that deceived Early
Christians. But anyways, to whom shall we believe, to Mr. Soliman or to
Athananius the man guided by the Holy Spirit and was proven to be in him?
Where was that, that once you say Athanasius is wrong it
follows that you are AGAINST HIM? And where is that, that because he
(Athanasius) is correct in defending the 27 books of the New Testament and
Christ’s divinity, it makes him Infallible?
This is what I said, If
I am wrong so must with Athanasius.
Another thing, it is also apparent that Mr. Soliman missed my secondary point; I introduced Athanasius to prove that the teaching on Mary’s sinlessness is as ancient as the development of Christology [Christ is divine: the formal definition at the council of Nicea] and as old as the first attempt to produce the official list of books for possible compilation (bible). In short, Early Christians believed Mary is sinless and this teaching is not newly invented.
Speaking of the
canon of Scripture, while Athanasius identified the 27 New Testament books,
does C. Pio know that Athanasius denies
the canonical status of the Apocrypha:
But for greater
exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books
besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to
be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of
godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and
Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and
the Shepherd.
Athanasius once wrote:
There are,
then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard,
it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews;
their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then
Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following
these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after
these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and
so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second
of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second
are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the
Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the
Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then
Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards,
Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.
And he went a
little further:
But for greater
exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books
besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to
be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of
godliness.
The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and
Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd.
But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being
[merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings.
But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose,
bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so,
using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the
simple.
Now the moment of truth: Mr. Soliman was trying to put words to Athanasius’ mouth; He
argued that according to St. Athanasius, there were only TWO CLASSES
OF ANCIENT WRITING: It's either "Canonical
Scripture" or "Apocrypha":[…]does C. Pio know that Athanasius denies the canonical
status of the Apocrypha
BUT this is not what Athanasius said, Athanasius used
THREE CLASSIFICATIONS NOT TWO:
(a) Canonical
(b)
Deuterocanonical: which is according to him [W]riting
of necessity […] appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join
us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness.
(c)
Apocryphal
Apocryphal Scriptures are distinct from Deuterocanonical.
Look at how he
uses the Deuterocanical books and references them:
But of these
and such like inventions of idolatrous madness, Scripture taught us
beforehand long ago, when it said, The devising of idols was the beginning of
fornication, and the invention of them, the corruption of life.
[Athanasius, Against
the Heathen, #11]
This quote is from Wisdom 14:12. And remember above
how he had that book classified as "non-canonical." Yet he plainly
refers to it as "Scripture." He had a different understanding of
terms than what Mr. Soliman do. This is largely where Mr. Soliman has erred. LOL
Again, here are some verses from Deuterocanical books
quoted by Athanasius himself in his writings against heretics as listed by one Catholic Apologist:
"But if this too fails to persuade
them, let them tell us themselves, whether there is any wisdom in the creatures
or not? If not how is it that the Apostle complains, 'For after that in the
Wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God?’ [1 Cor 1:21] or how is it if
there is no wisdom, that a 'multitude of wise men' [Wisdom
6:24] are found in Scripture? for 'a wise man feareth and departeth from
evil;’ [Prov 14:16] and 'through wisdom is a house builded;’ [Prov 24] and the
Preacher says, 'A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine;' and he blames those
who are headstrong thus, 'Say not thou, what is the cause that the former days
were better than these? for thou dost not inquire in wisdom concerning this.’
[Eccl 8:1,7:10] But if, as the Son of Sirach says, 'He poured her out
upon all His works; she is with all flesh according to His gift, and He hath
given her to them that love Him,'[Sirach 1:8,9]" [7] Athanasius the
Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 2:79 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:391
Here he quotes Wisdom and Sirach along with other
Scriptural books. The reference to Wisdom is termed ‘Scripture’. In the same
breath that he quotes from Ecclesiastes that the Preacher ‘says’, He says that
the Son of Sirach ‘says’. He can refer to them in one breath as 'non-canonical'
while still quoting them as Scripture.
Since, however, after all his severe
sufferings, after his retirement into Gaul, after his sojourn in a foreign and
far distant country in the place of his own, after his narrow escape from death
through their calumnies, but thanks to the clemency of the Emperor,- -distress
which would have satisfied even the most cruel enemy,-- they are still
insensible to shame, are again acting insolently against the Church and
Athanasius; and from indignation at his deliverance venture on still more
atrocious schemes against him, and are ready with an accusation, fearless
of the words in holy Scripture, 'A false witness shall not be unpunished;’
[Proverbs 19:5] and, 'The
mouth that belieth slayeth the soul;' (Wisdom 1:11) we therefore
are unable longer to hold our peace, being amazed at their wickedness and at
the insatiable love of contention displayed in their intrigues. [Athanasius the
Great: Defence Against the Arians, 3 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:101
Here St. Athanasius speaks of the fearless
words of Holy Scripture. First he quotes Proverbs and then he quotes the
Book of Wisdom. He thus terms Wisdom as ‘the fearless words of Holy Scripture.’
He uses it against his enemies. Obvious, even his enemies recognized the Book
of Wisdom as the 'fearless words of Holy Scripture'. It is almost amazing to
think that some people will use St. Athanasius as an important benchmark of
rejecting the Deuteros, but either are ignorant of or conveniently ignore the
fact that the Saint himself uses the term ‘fearless
words of Holy Scripture’ in reference to the Book of Wisdom.
Let us not fulfill these days like those
that mourn but, by enjoying spiritual food, let us seek to silence our fleshly
lusts(Ex. 15:1). For by these means we shall have strength to overcome our
adversaries, like blessed Judith (Judith 13:8), when having
first exercised herself in fasting and prayers, she overcame the enemies, and
killed Olophernes. And blessed Esther, when destruction was about to come
on all her race, and the nation of Israel was ready to perish, defeated the
fury of the tyrant by no other means than by fasting and prayer to God, and
changed the ruin of her people into safety (Esther 4:16) [Athanasius the
Great: Letter 4, 2 (A.D. 333), in NPNF2, IV:516.
St. Athanasius refers to
the need to go to spiritual food to overcome fleshly lusts. He calls Judith
'Blessed', and shows how her example shows how to overcome fleshly lusts
through prayers. He also terms Esther 'Blessed'. Thus, he keeps the books and
persons of Esther and Judith at the same level of inspiration. Again, no
distinction.
The Spirit also, who is in him, commands, saying, 'Offer
unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay to the Lord thy vows. Offer the
sacrifice of righteousness, and put your trust in the Lord (Sir. 18:17).')
[Athanasius the Great: Letter 19, 5 (A.D. 333), in NPNF2, IV:546
The Holy Spirit inspires
the book of Sirach. St. Athanasius sees the Scripture of Sirach where the
Spirit 'commands', through the book of Sirach. If Sirach was
unscriptural, how could it 'command'? Obviously St. Athanasius sees Sirach as
Scripture.
But this
wearied them, for they were not anxious to understand, 'for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory(1 Cor. 2:8).' And what their
end is, the prophet foretold,
crying, 'Woe unto their soul, for they have devised an evil thought,
saying, let us bind the just man, because he is not pleasing to us’(Wis. 2:12).
The end of such abandonment as this can be nothing but error, as the Lord, when
reproving them, saith, 'Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures(Mt. 22:29).’
[Athanasius the Great: Letter 19:5 (A.D. 347), in NPNF2, IV:546
St. Athanasius terms the
Book of Wisdom as written by a prophet. He terms Wisdom 2 as speaking of Jesus,
as he was crucified. This is right in the midst of his quotations of 1
Corinthians and the book of Matthew. He quotes his opponents, just as Jesus
alludes to his opponents in Matthew, of not knowing the Scriptures. Just as
Jesus reproves the Sadduccees for not ‘knowing’ Scripture, Athanasius reproves
them for not knowing Wisdom, which is obviously Scripture.
According as the wisdom of
God testifies beforehand when it says, "The devising of idols
was the beginning of fornication." (Wis.
14:12)Against the Heathen, 9 (A.D. 347), in NPNF2, IV:9.
Here we see St.
Athanasius arguing against idolatry, using the book of Wisdom. He calls it 'the
wisdom of God'. He uses the passage to teach against idolatry. Again, he sees
this as authoritative in reproving idolatry.
We have seen citations from Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach,
Judith, and the Deuterocanonical books. He calls the books Scriptures, calls the books as written
by prophets, fearless words of Holy
Scripture and uses it in proving doctrine against heretics.
Contrary to what Mr. Soliman said, Athanasius saw it as Deuterocanonical Books not as an Apocryphal [an
invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them
their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient
writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple].
Who is C. Pio going to believe now?
Comparing weed
to wheat? Obviously, to Athanasius (not to Mr. Soliman)
In addition, what about the other church
fathers who does not say Mary is the ark of the New Covenant, such as
Hyppolytus:
ON PSALM XXII/XXIII
From the Commentary by the holy bishop and martyr Hippolytus on The Lord is my Shepherd. And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle (of the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: "My wounds stank and were corrupt because of my foolishness." But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold.
From the Commentary by the holy bishop and martyr Hippolytus on The Lord is my Shepherd. And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle (of the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: "My wounds stank and were corrupt because of my foolishness." But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold.
Let me quote other translation/version of St. Hippolytus statement [170-c. 236]:
“At
that time, the Savior coming from the
Virgin, the Ark, brought forth His own Body into the world from that Ark, which
was gilded with pure gold within by the Word, and without by the Holy Ghost; so
that the truth was shown forth, and the Ark was manifested....And the
Savior came into the world bearing the incorruptible Ark, that is to say His
own body” (S. Hippolytus, In Dan.vi., Patr. Gr., Tom. 10, p. 648) (Blessed
Virgin, p. 77).
St. Hippolytus
says that Christ “was sinless, because, according to His humanity, He was
fashioned from indestructible wood… out of the Virgin and the Holy Ghost”
But given that his statement is ambiguous, given that he viewed Christ as the Ark not Mary. "what about the other church fathers who does not say Mary is the ark of the New Covenant, such as Hyppolytus". The question is, Is he opposing the teaching that speaks on Mary's sinlessness? This will not hold water and cannot be used against Mary because Hippolytus attested that she is sinless.
But given that his statement is ambiguous, given that he viewed Christ as the Ark not Mary. "what about the other church fathers who does not say Mary is the ark of the New Covenant, such as Hyppolytus". The question is, Is he opposing the teaching that speaks on Mary's sinlessness? This will not hold water and cannot be used against Mary because Hippolytus attested that she is sinless.
In support, this Greek speaking scholar, bishop, and martyr and considered to be
one of the most important witnesses as to how the early church worshipped, once
wrote about the Blessed Mary:
But the pious confession of the believer
is that, with a view to our salvation, . . . the Creator of all things
incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled
conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate
from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the
same was in nature at once perfect God and man (Against Beron and Helix,
Frag VIII).
Notice that
Hippolytus refers to Mary as all-holy, and ever-virgin. Since he does this in
passing, we may be sure that he is introducing no new teaching about Mary, so
that it was common to refer to Mary in these terms before Hippolytus wrote.
Thus, too, they preached of the advent
of God in the flesh to the world, His
advent by the spotless and God-bearing Mary in the way of birth and growth,
and the manner of His life and conversation with men, [...] (A Discourse
on the End of the World).
Hippolytus casually address to Mary as spotless and
God-bearing.
Mr. Soliman’s response using St. Hippolytus can be
summarized in one word: SELECTIVE.
And speaking of selective, here is what
C. Pio has to say about that comment when he obviously did not question our
parallelism of Joseph the Dreamer and with Joseph the husband of Mary:
My position is
this: Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant; Mr. Soliman’s response? As usual,
another Fallacy: An old style Straw-Man
fallacy. He simply ignores my actual position and substitutes a distorted,
exaggerated and misrepresented version and he is suggesting to draw conclusion
according to his own-unheard-typology-which-is-truly-absurd:
Expecting for a serious counterargument against fallacies? Oh my… I’m not
losing my self yet.
Folks, where did C. Pio quote
another sample of typology? In the New Testament, obviously. What
is the characteristic of the books of the New Testament? God inspired, of
course. And if it is God inspired, we obviously can't question it.
When Mr.
Soliman states that “the characteristic
of the books of the New Testament is God inspired” he is necessarily basing
his beliefs on a Tradition outside of Scripture. That is because Scripture is
not self-authenticating.
Catholic Apologist argued before:
Scripture is not self-authenticating, which is what
you are assuming. If it were, then the canon of Scripture would have been
settled right away. The fact is, the Church debated it for four centuries. Why?
Because it is not self-authenticating. Even after Pope Damasus determined the
canon, some in the Church questioned it. The Council of Trent put this to bed
by elevating the Church's teaching on the canon to a dogmatic teaching. This is
a teaching that you accept, and it was rendered by the Catholic Church.
Mr. Soliman
would not know the Scriptures were inspired unless someone first told him that
they were. by relying on a source outside of Scripture is to demonstrate the truth that bible undermines Bible alone teaching and it
proves that Mr. Soliman relies to the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaching on the canonicity of the books of the present bible today. (Yes, Mr.
Soliman accepted Catholic Tradition, but don't know he does). I am sure he
will appeal using Bible verse like 2 Timothy 3:16-17 but I have a limited space
to discuss this thing here, so it is better for me to provide the link that
deals on that argument: Sola Scriptura
But is there an apostle in the New
Testament who made a parallel between Mary and the old testament Ark? None, these were done by fallible
people after John wrote the book of Revelations. Don't get me wrong, we
can do typology today but it isn't as reliable as those typologies made in the
Bible.
Really? Well, Luke
provides us information about Mary and the Ark of the Covenant in a SIMPLE AND
OBVIOUS WAY, by means of PARALLELS in WORDS AND IMAGES.
Example, Luke makes an interesting word choice in [Luke
1:42]; he tells us that Elizabeth
“cried out in a loud voice”. The word
translated “cried out” occurs nowhere
else in the New Testament. But it does occur five times in Old Testament, and
every time it shows up in passages having to do with the Ark of the Covenant,
describing the joyful noise God’s people made in celebration of His presence
among them.
Why Luke choose this word? Obvious, so that we can’t help
noticing the similarity between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary the Mother of
my Lord.
As we mentioned
before, Mr. Soliman’s article is either a fallacy, a joke or both.
...But expect
sooner or later Mr. Soliman will post an article showing one or two of my post (or post from other catholic apologist) lifted few sentences to show of having inconsistency though it’s not if we base and read it on its proper
context… as usual this is his trademark so we expect for it J
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